Certina DS-3 PH1000m RAN-issue engravings

[Nalu]

I've had more than a few offline convos with folks about these watches and think it's high time we attempt to shed some light on the situation. As per SOP, one of the best ways of doing this is to make a post here and get feedback from fellow MWRines.

First, I'd like to get some input on my hypothesis about the history of the PH1000m. I believe the DS-3 PH1000m was introduced in 1976 as a successor to the DS-2 PH1000m and that it was powered by the cal. 919-1, which is a quickset date movement. The DS-2 PH1000m was produced from 1970-75 and was powered by the cal. 25-651 initially and then later by the 25-651M, both non-quickset date movements.

The above comes from both my own experience of a half-dozen PH1000m watches (civilian and RAN), reviewing catalogs and magazine advertisements, and the very informative vintage Certina website owned by a knowledgeable fellow vintage Certina WIS:

Certina

We all know that the RAN PH1000m watches were all DS-3s. This means they were purchased in the mid-70s, not the early 70s, and that they should all have the 919-1 quickset date movement. This is supported by the fact that the two earliest (lowest SN) RAN Certinas I'm aware of currently belong to Konrad (lambstew - SN18) and myself (SN27) and have 919-1s in them.

As always, building off of this we can gain even more knowledge and make a better judgment regarding engravings.

Here are the engraving photos I have in my files. Unfortunately, they are not all attributable so I apoligise in advance for having 'stolen' anyone's photos. They are presented in SN order.



















The NSN pattern I see here is as follows:

Pattern A - #18, #27, #100 & #168 have the same NSN font - narrow and vertical (look at the straight-sided "6"s and "0"s). Within this group, some have "S/No." preceding the serial number and some have just the serial number.

Pattern B - #169 & #170 have the same NSN font - narrow with rounded "6"s and "0"s. Both of these have just the serial number marked.

Then there are the 'oddballs', #159, #187 and #320. None of these three form a pattern, with different NSN fonts and different SN marking styles.

I agree with George when he says that two or more contractors (or pursers) may have marked these watches and so it's difficult to say what's what. Furthermore, presumably some of these watches needed a new movement at some point in their lives and so may have had whatever was at hand put inside, a 25-651 for example.

I'm grateful for comments and more data points - let's have 'em!

[plonky]

http://www.rancd-association.com/

There are some pretty knowledgeable old bubblies there and an enquiry sent their way may assist.

Cheers

Grant

PS Apparently the Droz were quite a favoured item according to their website.

[George W. Olney]

I'm going to make an intelligent guess that these watches were purchased in lots from Certina. As each lot came in, it was given to an engraver or metal shop to grind the backs smooth and then engrave NSN and S/N. That would account for variations.

What would be interesting, actually vital, to know is when these lots were purchased and how many were in each lot. The first purchase, if my guess is right, was of a hundred or more watches. The remaining lots seem to be smaller and of irregular amounts. Total purchase was certainly over 327. I used to own that watch, and it's still the highest S/N I've so far seen.

Any information about purchases and amounts would go far to resolving this little mystery.

George

[Nalu]

Thanks Grant, perused the web site and will make contact. I'm a bit bummed that I attended '09 ANZAC day ceremonies (and the obligatory two-up aftermath ) but missed out on talking to some of the CDT vets.

[alinghi74]

Hi Colin

Thank you for starting this thread. Great that all known serialnumbers are listed here.

I don't know much about the RAN issues but i would say you had written everything that we know at this point. I hope we could say more one day.

I guess all the RAN-models had the black dial?

[Snogge]

Love them !

[alinghi74]

Originally Posted by Snogge

Love them !

Hi Snogge!

I thought so!

[Nalu]

Originally Posted by alinghi74

Hi Colin

Thank you for starting this thread. Great that all known serialnumbers are listed here.

I don't know much about the RAN issues but i would say you had written everything that we know at this point. I hope we could say more one day.

I guess all the RAN-models had the black dial?

Yes, all the ones I've seen.

A few years ago Dale Arnold mentioned seeing a yellow dial RAN PH1000m in a Japanese 'mook' and asked about a watch he'd seen or owned that had a yellow dial and RAN engravings. Problem there is that he says it was #187 and here is the picture I have on file of #187's dial:



Which tells me that at least some of these watches have been frankened.

[alinghi74]

Originally Posted by Nalu

Yes, all the ones I've seen.

A few years ago Dale Arnold mentioned seeing a yellow dial RAN PH1000m in a Japanese 'mook' and asked about a watch he'd seen or owned that had a yellow dial and RAN engravings. Problem there is that he says it was #187 and here is the picture I have on file of #187's dial:



Which tells me that at least some of these watches have been frankened.

This must be definitely a Frankenwatch. There were no dial version of the DS-3 with raised indices, so this must be a DS-2 dial. In this picture unfortunately I can't see the print.