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Thread: Strange S.58

  1. #1
    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Default Strange S.58

    I have always liked the S.58. Great stealthy watch with cool bakelite bezel and mysterious back story. Despite some debunking, I still believe that these watches are connected with the Sikorsky S-58. The other proffered stories make no sense. I won't give them airtime here. Suffice it to say the watch was not even launched in 1958 -- and the geophysical year stuff is just ridiculous. My view is premised on the fact that the very strange font used by Zenith for the S in S.58 matches the flying S logo of Sikorsky almost exactly. The copter was known as the S-58. Moreover, at the time the S.58 watch was being produced, Zenith was making watches for a number of military suppliers. Most people know the Zenith/A. Carelli Italian pilot's chrono (helo pilots, to be exact). And guess what...Italy bought 375 S-58s in the late 50s early to mid 60s. Anyway, I think the S.58 was just another watch Zenith was trying to hawk to people like Carelli. The Sikorsky S-58 was hugely popular with a dozen different militaries. And the aircraft was typically configured for marine use, including most of those bought by the Italians.

    Anyway, let's forget about the name. I found a strange one at Portobello today. It had what I instantly spotted to be an irregular bezel insert. It was a countdown insert rather than the usual useless dot insert. It also had BOTH a white triangle AND a radium hash at 12 -- visible in both daylight and darkness. Very very useful insert as inserts go. The bezel is 100% original and correct. The insert is very old and seemingly original to the bezel (no way you could pry it out and reinsert it). It sits perfectly in the bezel and has exactly the same profile as the standard insert. It is bakelite and very clearly factory made. Perhaps it is just a standard late insert, but I couldn't find any examples on the web. It could be a special order of some sort. knowing how people here think, I am sure there will be suggestions of aftermarket or (not implausibly) borrowed from another watch. It just doesn't seem like that is the case. Too old and perfect. Any thoughts?
    Hurley
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    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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     photo FullSizeRender.jpg

     photo IMG_3617.jpg

     photo IMG_3628.jpg

    http://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-...o-sikorsky.jpg

    and, yes, it has a replacement crown.... h
    Hurley
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    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Ok. Getting somewhere. After posting on an Italian forum -- I suspected that Cairelli might be involved for the reasons noted above -- I got some useful info. I did not realize that Cairelli produced a number of its own dive watches for the Marina Militare (in addition to sourcing watches from zenith, UG, triton, etc). So they had the capacity to do a special order insert themselves. In fact, they made a custom bakelite bezel for a Triton dive watch apparently. Beyond that, however, I found several examples of Cairelli dive watches with the same odd configuration at 12 as this watch -- a glow in the dark slash and a painted triangle. Not dispositive, of course, but interesting.

    here is URL: https://www.kijiji.it/annunci/orolog...elli/103746958

    Best, H
    Hurley
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    A thoroughly interesting and well thought out post Hurley and good to see you up on the board again 👍🏻

    The S is very stylized indeed and it sounds like you're definitely into something here..

    Thanks for sharing -

    Cheers,

    Konrad

  5. #5

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    For anyone interested in helicopters these wiki articles pretty much cover the life of the H-34/S-58/Wessex variants. The Wessex was the main stay of the RN and RAF it it's day and served the country well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_H-34

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Wessex

    I wish I'd know about the Zenith S-58 earlier as I'd certainly be wearing one now if I had one, a beauty up there with the early SM300 IMHO.

    Terry

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    Member Grentch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambstew View Post
    A thoroughly interesting and well thought out post Hurley and good to see you up on the board again ����
    +1 And I agree with the conclusions you made. Makes a lot of sense. Gorgeous watch with it *jealous*
    Careful now....

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    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Hi Folks -- I got a real workout over at the Omega forum! I posted about the S.58 there because it has historically been, for whatever reason, where the most discussion about the enigmatic S.58 has occurred. I've learned quite a few things and am hot on the trail of a few more details. I have ordered archive extracts for three watches: the strange one I found, a first generation (no bezel at all, just smooth) example and a very late example. The archive information might resolve the whole mystery....

    To recap what I've learned:

    The history of the S.58 has been the subject of a lot of theories over the years. In the mid-50s, when the S.58 was made (some Zenith experts and serial # charts say they first appeared in '56 and LVMH and other charts say '58), Zenith was selling chronos to Cairelli that were issued to, among others, Italian helo pilots (UG and Bretiling made the AMI chronos, too). Cairelli was sort of the Italian G&S at the time. Their story is murky, but they seem to be gone by the 70s. They made (or at least sold) a lot of watches, especially dive watches, under their own name, including watches to the MM. Just google "A Cairelli." The S.58, in many of its forms (it was born with a fixed smooth bezel but acquired a rotating bakelite/radium dive bezel within a year or two and was available with both black and white dials), has a decidedly military appearance (to my eye) and has a big S.58 engraved on the back that looks like a military engraving (but is not). Also, the S in S.58 is in a unique font that very closely resembles the Sikorsky "flying S" logo. The S-58 (or H-34 as it also known) was a widely used marine helicopter at the time. Some Italian S.58 pilots doubtless wore Zenith chronos since the Italians bought quite a few S.58s. It also appears that Zenith, at one time, supplied instruments to Sikorsky. According to the Zenith website, they stopped selling avionics in 1960. Finally, Zenith has a long, long history with aircraft instruments and pilot watches. It has frequently used this association to sell watches. Look at all the pilot watches on their website today, including a reissue of the AMI (Zenith) chrono.

    The beast under the microscope (extract ordered):

     photo FullSizeRender.jpg

    First version S.58 (fixed, smooth bezel) with white dial (extract ordered):

     photo 408060-838893a41ba5ab847bd561e9f52e2acc.jpg

    See e.g. http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-more-info-now

    In light of all of that, Zenith collectors, including some very serious collectors, have maintained that the S.58 was the result of some kind of collaboration with Cairelli and that Cairelli purchased the entire 1200 unit initial run of rotating bezel-free S.58s (as noted above, the more familiar S.58 with vestigial bezel was the 2nd version), inferentially for sale as PX watches to military types who would like its military style cues, including the reference to the Sikorsky S.58 (sort of like Zenith releasing an F.16 or Mig.23 model today). This story accounted not just for the atypical (for Zenith) and somewhat cryptic engravings and dial markings on the watch, but also for its general austere military appearance. It also fit in with a practice among many watch companies at the time of trying to make lucrative bulk sales under government or government vendor contracts. Think BP or Tornek or Leonidas or Heuer (heck, it was the Bund contract that Heuer acquired from Leonidas that helped save Heuer in the 70s). Big brands played, too -- including famously Tudor/Rolex, Benrus and Bulova.

    However, as many may have seen, a Zenith collector recently contacted Louis Vuitton (which owns Zenith now) and asked about the origin of the name S.58. The collector got a one sentence letter back that said that the S stands for super-waterproof and 58 for the year of introduction. This didn't make a lot of sense on its face since 1958 was not an anniversary year for Zenith (contrast with the Eternal Centennaire). More generally, it didn't seem like a sane marketing strategy to call a watch you kept in the line well into the 60s the "1958 model." It just made zero sense. It also seemed doubtful that Vuitton, though well-intentioned, would have a clue what happened 60 years and two corporate takeovers ago. The idea that the watch was designed for the military market, in collaboration with Cairelli or otherwise, just seemed so much more likely. The Sikorsky tie-in (I also got an email from a guy who is part of a flying club who told me that they have a 40s S-53 with Zenith instruments), given the corporate history and the fact that Zenith chronos were likely on the wrists of S58 pilots, seemed to make a lot more sense -- even if just as a style factor rather than anything official. (Indeed, I doubt that Zenith ever talked to Sikorsky about the watch.).

    So that's where things stood. Then, one of the Omega forum people produced an interesting advert for the S.58. It indicated that the watch was rated for immersion to a depth of 150 meters, but then went on to say that the "S.58 super-etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers, Technicians, Chemists, Military Officers and Sportsmen who want a watch with a classical form that is totally resistant to water, chemical vapor and dust. The S.58 is equipped with a magnetic field protected movement, spiral autocompensator, double arrow raquette and unbreakable spring. A special mechanism allows the time to be set precisely by stoping the second hands." Whoa! So they name essentially three target groups for the watch: sportsmen, scientists and military officers! Beyond that, it has all the classic features of a pilot watch -- hack setting and magnetic shielding. The reference to "military officers" seems especially significant (and unusual for a watch ad in the 50s) and suggests to me that the Cairelli story -- or at least some scenario that involves projected PX sales, etc was driving the name and the style of the S.58. The focus on pilot watch features also seemed to make the Sikorsky link just a bit stronger. Anyway, it was good to see that ad. It showed how Zenith, at the time, was positioning the watch -- and the positioning was consistent with the Cairelli story or some version of it.

     photo home_image.3105688_1.jpg

    So, to sum up, according to Zenith's own contemporaneous advertising literature, the S.58 was specifically designed to appeal to military officers, particularly pilots. I suggest that it accomplished that goal by associating the watch with the S-58 marine helicopter, the pilots of which were already wearing Zenith chronographs supplied by Cairelli. This all makes perfect sense, and indeed is very much in line with Zenith's longterm advertising strategy of selling its watches by evoking its historical connection to avionics and pilot watches. Whether Cairelli, as some Zenith experts have long conjectured, was directly involved in the design and distribution of the S.58 watch (which would readily account for its atypical design features, including its unusual casebook inscription reminiscent of military engravings), can best be proved by obtaining archive extracts of first generation S.58 watches. In light of the target audiences for the S.58 identified by Zenith, there is no reason to believe that its marketing goals would be advanced in any way by associating the watch, sold as it was over a period of many years, with 1958 (especially since many Zenith collectors seem to believe that the watch appeared in 1956).

    But what about that crazy bezel?

    Again, it appears to be factory work that fits perfectly, matches the contours of the stock bezel and contains radium (not readily available to the public). The numbers on the odd insert are milled and filled and appear to match the dial fonts (only have the "2" to go by). The slash is radium and shows about 3 mR/h on my Russian Geiger counter. The slash is exactly the same size and color as the slashes at 3-6-9 on the original bezel.

    Standard insert for comparison:

     photo 11089-z2_1.jpg

    Strange insert:

     photo IMG_3674.jpg

     photo IMG_3675.jpg

    But what's with the crazy triangle AND slash at 12! Why have both? In light of the overall quality of the fabrication, I don't think it was a mistake. A huge amount of work went into this thing. I did find an image above of a Cairelli dive watch that had a vaguely similar configuration at 12. Perhaps that is the answer. Cairelliu had the capacity to make or source such things. But why?

     photo 11bf61ea1ef1b000aeed35013414519b_orig_1.jpg

    Here are a few points that I think might be relevant to the puzzle:

    --At the time the S.58 was made, many countries had begun to impose either bans or strict limits on government procurement of watches that contained radium

    --A painted triangle is highly visible in the day but barely visible in the dark; vice versa for a radium hash mark

    --The original S.58 insert is almost useless for diving. It is a style feature, really.

    --The S.58 case and bezel are unique to that watch AFAIK (would love to hear otherwise!)

    --The odd insert has a very useful layout for diving (countdown configuration, minutes marked over last 15, etc.)

    --All of the dive watch mil specs of which I am aware have insert marking req'ts that the stock bezel would not meet

    --At least one company (Enicar) had to design a special insert when it submitted its dive watch for gov't procurement

    --The odd insert shows extreme age and so was probably installed at a time when (a) new inserts were available from zenith and (b) the watch itself could easily and cheaply have been replaced.

    --The bizarre combination of slash and triangle might militate against the inference that this was a stock bezel from another yet-to-be-identified watch.

    So, was this an extreme hobbyist's one-off? Did Zenith make it as a sample to proto-tyoe of an upgraded (and functional) bezel (it is a late production example with the all caps "AUTOMATIC" dial). Was it an example submitted to meet a government spec as part of a procurement selection process? Or was it something else altogether.

    I did find a clue. As some of you may know, in the mid 60s, Breguet marketed a dive watch. 60 examples made. Christies auctioned one off for $100K. Although entirely authenticated by Breguet, the watch appears to be nothing more than a thinly rebadged S.58. The case, bezel, dial and sweep are all the same. it has a basic AS movement that is the same size as the Zenith movement. The date wheel and window are the same. The dial has the same pie pan shape and the same black gloss. All Breguet did was pop in a new generic movement and paint their name on the dial. Did the base watches come from a third party vendor who also supplied them to Zenith? Or did Cairelli have a bunch left over from the 1200 that they had to dump? We know they had left over AMI chronos that they sold unmarked on the civilian market. Did history repeat itself? The answer is relevant because if the case and bezel was being supplied by a third party, there could be other S.58 clones out there with other insert types. It would be great to know the answer. I have looked at 1000s of watches and have only found the Breguet clone. But others may be in the bushes!

     photo z2FjzKF-1024x682_1.jpg

    http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...5-details.aspx

    http://www.ablogtowatch.com/breguet-...-vintage-1965/

    https://www.thebillionaireshop.com/1...ns-on-auction/

    Anyway, there is a lot going on here.

    I will report as soon as I get the extracts and/or learn more about where the case can from.

    Best, Hurley
    Hurley
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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    Have you thought of getting a archive letter it will tell you were it was sold and that will tell you for civilian or military market just ordered one for my Zenith Special. Zenith sould be able to answer this.
    http://www.zenith-watches.com/en_en/extraits-archive

    I had a original Omega SHOM we all know the myth it was issued to the French well got a Omega archive letter and it blew that myth out of the water it was sold in the Cayman islands I think there British territory I was really hoping that story was true.

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    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Hi RR -- Cayman provenance is really cool in my book! As you may know, there are many joint operations in the Caribbean between SHOM, the British HO and the US Hydrographic Service, especially around seafloor mapping. There could be a very interesting story there. At any rate, if the watch went to Grand Cayman, you know it was used for serious underwater work.

    Yes, I have ordered archive extracts for several S.58 watches now so hopefully we can get to the bottom of this! Best, Hurley
    Hurley
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    Hurley's passion for the topic is admirable. Unfortunately, however, his efforts have also revealed a severe case of confirmation bias.

    As the one who ruffled his feathers over at the Omega forum, I'm not going to rehash the whole argument. But to add a bit of balance to his breathless quest, consider the following.

    His out-of-hand dismissal of Marc Roethlisberger's response to my query about a possible connection to Sikorky helicopter, is ridiculous on its face.

    "...a Zenith collector recently contacted Louis Vuitton (which owns Zenith now) and asked about the origin of the name S.58. The collector got a one sentence letter back that said that the S stands for super-waterproof and 58 for the year of introduction. This didn't make a lot of sense on its face since 1958 was not an anniversary year for Zenith (contrast with the Eternal Centennaire). More generally, it didn't seem like a sane marketing strategy to call a watch you kept in the line well into the 60s the "1958 model." It just made zero sense. It also seemed doubtful that Vuitton, though well-intentioned, would have a clue what happened 60 years and two corporate takeovers ago."

    First, think about how he distorts language in an attempt to strengthen his case. I sent an email to Zenith, and received a reply from a well-respected employee who had worked for that company for at least 10 years. Hurley, however, would prefer readers to think that I had contacted some receptionist from a fashion company, whose prime concern is next year's line of luggage.

    When one contacts Vacheron & Constantin, Jaeger-LeCoultre, or IWC, one is not contacting Richemont. This may seem like a pedandic point, but it is actually a very typical example of how Hurley has attempted to spin his research in favor of his preferred result.

    Marc Roethlisberger's response to me was unequivocal:

    Dear Sir,

    Many thanks for your interest in ZENITH watches.

    The collection " S 58 " means S = Super water-resistant up to 150 meters and 58 for the year of launching the model.
    So nothing to do with helicopter Sikorsky S 58.

    With my best regards.

    Marc Roethlisberger

    ZENITH INTERNATIONAL SA

    Customer Service

    Now, let me be clear about something: I do not assume all information supplied by watch companies, and especially as it may relate to vintage models, to be accurate. But given the clarity of Mr. Roethlisberger's response, it takes more than a wave of the hand to reasonably dismiss.

    Beyond that, it is ludicrous to argue that Zenith personnel wouldn't "have a clue" about the issue, simply because the company has had new owners. Does Hurley also imagine that the IWC historical department wouldn't have a clue about the Mark IV?

    It is also nonsense to suggest that Roethlisberger's response makes "zero sense". In every S.58 advertisement and catalogue reference that I have seen, the first and primary emphasis is that the watch was "super-waterproof", which is precisely consistent with the claim relating to the significance of the S. As to why 58 was chosen, Hurley's dismissal is again strained, as there were countless model names, across countless manufacturer boundaries, that made equally little sense.

    Hurley's presentation of the ad is also intentionally misleading, as the end of the very first sentence in the ad reads: Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving

    Not only does this support Roethlisberger's response to my query, but it also underscores that Zenith was marketing the watch to divers, as well as others. Notice how Hurley attempts to spin away from that inconvenient fact:

    "So they name essentially three target groups for the watch: sportsmen, scientists and military officers!"

    No mention of divers, of course, because that causes problems with his hypothesis that the model name was connected to a helicopter.

    Then this, which is even more absurd:

    "So, to sum up, according to Zenith's own contemporaneous advertising literature, the S.58 was specifically designed to appeal to military officers, particularly pilots"

    Got that? An advert that shows a watch superimposed over an underwater scene, which boasts of its "super-waterproof" capabilities first and foremost, and which mentions several target markets, was, to Hurley's goal-seeking mind, "specifically designed to appeal to military officers, particularly pilots".

    Hoo boy.

    Now, with regard to a connection to the military, and/or Cairelli, I remain open-minded, but skeptical. Why skeptical? Because I know of not one example of an S.58 that bears either military markings or Cairelli markings. Nor am I aware of any bona fide, supporting anecdotal evidence having been produced by any former military personnel offering.

    Presumably Manfred Rossler had access to some relevant information on which to base his assertion that the entire first series of S.58 were purchased by Cairelli, but it is very odd that nothing specific has surfaced, at least publicly.

    I do genuinely hope that Hurley can uncover some interesting facts that will further illuminate the history of the model. I also hope that he demonstrate more objectivity as he chronicles his quest than he has to this point.

    Regards,

    Tony C.

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    Administrator ianp's Avatar
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    Link to the thread on the Omega forum - https://omegaforums.net/threads/stra...t-money.59731/

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    After reading the 7 pages (and counting) on this topic over on the Omega forum I'm looking forward to learning more about these watches. I never did know where to place them among Zenith's offerings as they weren't El Primero-related!

    And Tony C., you should post more often over here on MWR.

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    Here's a link to an S.58 sold by Matthew Bain.

    Interesting to read the description of the watch on the side bar called "Matthew's Note"

    "This the automatic version of the Zenith S58 from the 1950's. This Zenith is in excellent condition with a black original dial and original rotating bezel. Many of these watches are missing the original rotating bezel. The S58 logo on the dial and the back of the case has a great design. The S stands for super water resistant and 58 for the year it was introduced."

    http://www.matthewbaininc.com/watch-details/2107

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    And here's a post from 2009 on TZ-UK (it's post #20)

    http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-more-info-now


    "Just got the new Zenith book today (excellent but expensive - essential for Zenith addicts though) so I can now shed some more light on the S.58.

    Zenith designed it in 1958 as a watch with high resistance to external factors such as water, steam and dust. WR to 200m. They had the military in mind for it but also thought technicians, chemists and such like would be likely customers.

    The entire run of the original hand-wind model was apparently bought by Cairelli in Rome for the Italian Navy. The book states a figure of 2,500 produced but suggests that this is just for the original model, not including the later autos like the one above.

    Dave"


    Ok enough for now. That was just less than 10 mins of googling.

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    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Hi folks. Just a very brief reply since the issue has been well-canvassed already. Absolutely I was trying to emphasize Marc's disconnect from the key events. Heck, by Tony's reckoning he didn't even join the firm until 5-10 years after LVMH bought Zenith. It is odd that he holds up Marc (whose background and bona fides we don't know at all) but dismisses Herr Rossler who has "written the book" on Zenith, is a longtime collector, and who has been embraced by the current company as their resident expert. I was at a Zenith event recently co-attended by the head of the form and MR at which Herr Rossler was clearly put forward as the company's official historian. But, hey, he could still be wrong. Absolutely. It just seems strange to assume he is wrong, given his enormous expertise and passion for the brand over decades, and assume that Marc, about whom we know nothing is the better source.

    Anyway, as I've said many times, the extracts are our best hope for closure on this. As for the ad, it is just one ad. However, I encourage folks to look at it for themselves. I am fairly fluent in French living there for a big chunk of every year for work. While it does state the the watch has a depth rating of 150 meter, it then goes on -- quite specifically -- to list the groups at which the watch is aimed and divers are not listed. Indeed a watch aimed at "engineers, chemists, military officers and sportsmen" is quite unlikely also to be aimed at divers. The ad then goes on tout the watch's hack feature and impervity to magnetic fields, dust, vapor (fuel vapor LOL!) and water. It's a Railmaster or an Explorer. Just look at the image of the watch below. It has a white dial, minimal lume, and no rotating bezel. Does it look in ANY way to a dive watch to you? Tony compared it to a Scafograf, a watch that has a black dial, huge radium indices and heavily lumed arrowhead hands. That is a watch that, while lacking a rotating bezel, reeks of dive watch. In any event, Zenith specifically says the watch is aimed at military officers (among others). That is really all we need to know and all I ever suggested about its marketing niche.

    Anyway, we will see what we see when we get the extracts. This will be my very last word on the subject until we have that information. If Zenith wanted to celebrate 1958, for no apparent reason, by sticking that year in giant carved letters on the casebook and putting it on the dial, and then keep celebrating 1958 -- never adducing any rationale for that very singular honor -- for a decade, I guess that was Zenith's business.

    I must say, far more interesting to me, although just to me apparently, is the fact that Breguet got its hands on sixty S58s, repainted the dials (the base dials are the same), replaced the hour and minute hands, painted the sweep (but kept it) and bunged in a cheap AS movement to produce their own unmistakable S58 clone (see above or below, depending on how you've adjusted your settings). I doubt Zenith sold them watches (but who knows). Did the 60 Breguet/S58s come from Cairelli (we know they off-loaded spare AMI chronos)? From a third party that also sold component parts to Zenith? Something tells me that if we had the answer to those questions, we'd know a lot more about the S.58. However, I consider this Breguet connection to be a significant -- and previously undiscovered -- part of the emerging S58 story.

    All the best, Hurley

    PS. SWAB THE DECKS

    On the diving front generally, here is a cool deck scrubber pulled up yesterday from the mid 18th century wreck of the HMS Invincible. Note the Broadarrow. It is a very cool wreck. And I want to make it very clear that I did not take custody of any 18th century lead musketballs.... For folks in the UK. look for a story this coming weekend in the Times. It will be worth reading. BTW, I asked some of my colleagues about the bezel. They concurred that it was a huge upgrade over the original for diving purposes. They actually liked my idea of a slash and a painted triangle working together as a nice daylight/darkness combo. But who knows. More on that, too, I hope!

     photo IMG_3682.jpg
    Hurley
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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    I think that tool found on the wreck is called a holystone it was used until the last US battle ship was decommissioned for good in the 1990's being a old boatswains mate I heard story's of there use just glad I never had to use one. A cool tool found on the HMS Invincible any one know what year the British military started using the broad arrow mark ?
    http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/VIDEO...lystoning.html

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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    Hartmut Richter knows his stuff so a little more info.
    http://forums.watchuseek.com/f27/str...o-4453354.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by river rat View Post
    Hartmut Richter knows his stuff so a little more info.
    http://forums.watchuseek.com/f27/str...o-4453354.html
    I respect Hartmut's knowledge, but he is simply repeating what Rossler has written. I hope that Hurley is able to shed further light on Rossler's claim, including an explanation for why none of the S.58 have appeared with either military or Cairelli markings.

  19. #19
    Order of the Rebreather with Crossed Swim Fins hurley's Avatar
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    Hi RR. It is a holystone, indeed! Well spotted, sir. As for the broadarrow mark, an ancient symbol, it was likely brought to England by the Romans. However, it was Henry VIII who made it official in 1544. The story is much more complex, as you probably know. I wrote a short paper on this a while back. I'll email it to you if you PM me. The Invincible wreck is great. Do look for Simon de Bruxelles' story in the Times on Saturday.

    Thanks for all the PMs and emails. I'm responding as fast as possible. I'm sorry that we have to do it that way. This is an outstanding group.

    Best, Hurley.

    PS. If any UK MWRines have an interest in the Invincivle, PM me. (:

  20. #20
    Administrator ianp's Avatar
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    Exclamation Reminder - Please limit all further discussion to the watch.

    I have deleted a couple of posts that strayed over the line into comments about individuals. Discussion should be limited to the watch and discussions around it.

    Thanks

    IAP
    Order of the Invisible Ethereal Electron with Crossed Wizard's Wands

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