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Thread: Authenticity Check on Heuer Bund before I pull the trigger

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    Default Authenticity Check on Heuer Bund before I pull the trigger

    Hi there,

    I'm new to these forums but have been really interested in collecting military issued watches for some time now. I'm currently in the market for a Heuer Bund and think I finally found a great example that I am ready to pull the trigger on. It's from a friend who is selling for ~$5K.

    I've done research by looking online (general internet and also the posts here, and a PDF that compared dial variants) and feel that it is a strong example. 3H dial with T marking. The engravings all appear correct. Lugs look good. Seems to be mostly original (if not entirely - if that is even possible). However, I realize that a more seasoned eye might notice something I don't.

    Anyway, here are the pictures: http://imgur.com/a/HbASi -- I'd appreciate any feedback.

    For your time, if you're in the Washington D.C. area I'll owe you a beer . Otherwise, we can figure something out.

    Thanks,
    Ashish

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    It is a lot for a Bund bot this is a 4 digit one. Very early. I love it! The patina is also great.
    No worries there...

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    I know it is a bit high, but given the quality and the fact that he purchased it for a little more I'd feel bad even trying to go lower. And mentally, I was prepared anyway so...

    Appreciate the insight

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    Bunds are tricky and have many variations. Who can say for sure what is kosher? That being said there are a few inconsistencies with this one. It looks to me like an old case with a re-dial. Large Heuer font indicates a later version, certainly not a 4 digit piece. The "3h" sign is too bright and appears to be a new add-on or a later Sinn addition. The creamy color of the hands and numbers is perfect. Maybe too perfect. My guess is a very well done re-lume meant to look old.

    So, overall a great looking watch, but to my eye it's been pieced together not by military watchmakers, but saavy watch dealers who know what collectors are looking for.

    Just one guys opinion. Hope it helps.

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by argos View Post
    Bunds are tricky and have many variations. Who can say for sure what is kosher? That being said there are a few inconsistencies with this one. It looks to me like an old case with a re-dial. Large Heuer font indicates a later version, certainly not a 4 digit piece. The "3h" sign is too bright and appears to be a new add-on or a later Sinn addition. The creamy color of the hands and numbers is perfect. Maybe too perfect. My guess is a very well done re-lume meant to look old.

    So, overall a great looking watch, but to my eye it's been pieced together not by military watchmakers, but saavy watch dealers who know what collectors are looking for.

    Just one guys opinion. Hope it helps.
    Hey argos, the original seller told me he purchased it from someone named Ralf Beinenz in Germany. I think that individual deals with vintage Heuers. Anyway, as a result it was serviced at Sinn in Germany so I'm with you on your observation about the 3h sign. It also doesn't have the dot between the 3 and the h.

    I didn't notice the slightly larger Heuer font though... damn. Good eye. The rest of the watch (caseback, movement, etc.) seemed fine from what I could tell. Perhaps it was just the dial that was redone? Even the case itself looks legitimate.

    EDIT: It looks like this one, http://brown-snout.com/horology/arti...3h_smallcircle

    Which is Sinn refurbished

    EDIT2:

    But the sinn refurbished dial doesn't have a T and the one I posted originally does. Interesting.
    Last edited by shishy; 04-05-2017 at 11:34.

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    Yes, could be just the dial but that would mean re-doing the whole thing because a large font Heuer with cropped numbers is indicative of a later Bund, not a 4 digit one. I mention this because the hands match perfectly with the numbers, which suggests they have been together for some time, or the re-lume was done to match the hands. Perfect cream lume is very desirable and rarely seen as these hands got changed out quite a bit during military servicing. It appears cases and faces were changed so why are the hands and numbers still so perfecltly matched? Bunds are very often pieced together over time so it is hard to say what happened here. But, the case looks legitimate and old. Early period. The face looks to be out of synch with the case and probably was changed out in a Sinn refurb in the 1990s (as the ad in that link shows) or put together by someone with one of the many re-dialed faces floating around.
    These are tricky watches but I personally would wait to find one that looks good and feels honest. This one looks great but it would drive me crazy with all of the questions it brings up. I have been through 4 myself before finding the right one. Be patient, it will come to you.

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by argos View Post
    Yes, could be just the dial but that would mean re-doing the whole thing because a large font Heuer with cropped numbers is indicative of a later Bund, not a 4 digit one. I mention this because the hands match perfectly with the numbers, which suggests they have been together for some time, or the re-lume was done to match the hands. Perfect cream lume is very desirable and rarely seen as these hands got changed out quite a bit during military servicing. It appears cases and faces were changed so why are the hands and numbers still so perfecltly matched? Bunds are very often pieced together over time so it is hard to say what happened here. But, the case looks legitimate and old. Early period. The face looks to be out of synch with the case and probably was changed out in a Sinn refurb in the 1990s (as the ad in that link shows) or put together by someone with one of the many re-dialed faces floating around.
    These are tricky watches but I personally would wait to find one that looks good and feels honest. This one looks great but it would drive me crazy with all of the questions it brings up. I have been through 4 myself before finding the right one. Be patient, it will come to you.

    Yes, the point about lume is an important one and something I have to consider.

    After digging through these forums, specifically the post by Lange on this thread, it seems that the dial itself (3H + T) is acceptable: http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showt...ariation/page2

    So many dial variants for this one, it's a struggle.

    Also @dave sorry, was I supposed to post the pictures directly here? My mistake -- thank you for taking care of it.

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    Moderator dave's Avatar
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    no, no real need to but it sometimes makes viewing the forum a lot easier for some users..

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    Just note that none of those pictured in that posting have cropped numerals or the large Heuer font. They also have different shaped "3"s in the 3H. Look closely, yours has a rounded top 3 not straight. And, finally, they don't have the very large "T" above the 6 which yours has. I have never seen such a large T before. It just looks wrong. Be very careful here.

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    I belive I considered this exact piece when it was for sale by the original owner/dealer you mentioned. I was told that it was serviced by Sinn. If I remember correctly, the price we arrived at was somewhere around 4300usd. I was attracted to the patina, but after carful consideration decided to pass.

    I also think you can do better for much less than 5k.

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    Did you pass because of what argos was mentioning earlier re: dial? And, that's a funny coincidence haha. I think it was on sale on chrono24 a few months ago. Same one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by argos View Post
    . Perfect cream lume is very desirable and rarely seen as these hands got changed out quite a bit during military servicing. It appears cases and faces were changed so why are the hands and numbers still so perfecltly matched? come t.
    Very good point indeed! a perfect match in creamy colors very often reveals refurbishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shishy View Post
    Did you pass because of what argos was mentioning earlier re: dial? And, that's a funny coincidence haha. I think it was on sale on chrono24 a few months ago. Same one.
    For the most part, yes. Mainly because the patina is SO consistent and perfect. I did consider that at best, the dial and hands might have sat in a drawer for years, never exposed to light or moisture and aged nicely together. This could be possible because it was said to have been at SINN for service. However, at worse, the dial and hands could have been repainted to look like aged tritium. I also was not sure about the 3H symbol on the dial. As with aged Tritium, there's always the possibility that it was added after to make the dial more desirable.

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    Junior Member shishy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idmoderne View Post
    For the most part, yes. Mainly because the patina is SO consistent and perfect. I did consider that at best, the dial and hands might have sat in a drawer for years, never exposed to light or moisture and aged nicely together. This could be possible because it was said to have been at SINN for service. However, at worse, the dial and hands could have been repainted to look like aged tritium. I also was not sure about the 3H symbol on the dial. As with aged Tritium, there's always the possibility that it was added after to make the dial more desirable.
    Makes sense. My concern with the 3h is that it looks like it was added on after the sinn refurbished, since the 3 is round. The T could have been added on after leaving the Heuer factory. Impossible to know.

    It's annoying because the rest of the watch is perfect haha. Maybe I'll look for a different dial... or keep poking around for an example like this.

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