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Thread: Interesting - Lemania Italian prototype?

  1. #1
    Moderator Syrte's Avatar
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    Default Interesting - Lemania Italian prototype?

    No link to the seller, and no plug intended, but it's always interesting to discover new watches /stories, my Italian is very lousy but this seems serious and the seller is clearly a regular on Chronocentric.
    Anyone else seen it / looked at it?

    http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/...=read;id=63449










  2. #2
    Member rpaddy's Avatar
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    One of the big fake about the italian military watches!
    Never and say never into Italian Air Force there was a watch with Squadron emblem on dial assign! Only the eagle with crown and A.M.I. write and 3H symbol .
    If you read carefully the documents there are the timing discrepancy, and never in 31* Sqn was ask any modify at Heuer 510.543 or Lemania 11022 . The first batch of Heuer was delivery in 1982( 2000 units) until at 1996 end with Lemania (around 500 units) .
    Never LMC branded watches, were issued by A.M.I. Then the italian MoD never asked at a private watchmacker to modify any watches issued.
    See the picture, first the hands are a yellonish patina ( relumed) visible if enlarge the picture, the backscrew has the spanish internal stock number and the write AMI was engraved with incorrect font and fantasy assignment number.
    The crown is incorrect for Heuer or Lemania watch, the buttons of fantasy for a crazy theory !!!
    Be aware !!
    For any infos or futher details I remain
    Roberto

  3. #3

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    Thanks to Sylvie and Roberto for bringing this to our attention!

    Very interesting..

  4. #4
    Moderator Syrte's Avatar
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    Thanks to Roberto for sharing his expertise.
    Especially intriguing as I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong) that the seller is also a contributor in good standing in the OTD Heuer forum, not just a frequent seller there. Am sure the OTD members lurking around here will end up chiming in....

  5. #5
    Member rpaddy's Avatar
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    I know very well this watch and another similar with 31* Stormo ( Squadron) who I stopped from sellind in my forum.
    Both watches comes from Italy,assebled with spare parts sold years ago, from a retired watchmaker who overhaulted the military watches for A.M.I. during 90' years.
    The post II WW italian military watches issued from Italian Air Forces are:
    Universal Geneve HA1 chrono 24h A. Cairelli ( very few)
    Leonidas chrono single button ( 50mm moviment Unitas)
    Leonidas CP1
    Universal Geneve CP2 ( very few)
    Leonidas CP2
    Zenith CP2 A. Cairelli
    Heuer 510.543
    Lemania 11022

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    Also worth noting that the movement is later than the stated provenance.
    In 1987 Lemania were still numbering 5100s in a recessed medallion, the bridge numeration happened later.
    If one were suspiciously inclined one might think that is why the photographer has chosen to show the latter part of the movement serial, rather than the first numbers, which may show a later production.
    D

  7. #7
    Member rpaddy's Avatar
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    Hi Sweet,
    Right!!! this is another detail about the movement, and surely the 5100 into this frankenwatch is a later production!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpaddy View Post
    I know very well this watch and another similar with 31* Stormo ( Squadron) who I stopped from sellind in my forum.
    Both watches comes from Italy,assebled with spare parts sold years ago, from a retired watchmaker who overhaulted the military watches for A.M.I. during 90' years.
    The post II WW italian military watches issued from Italian Air Forces are:
    Universal Geneve HA1 chrono 24h A. Cairelli ( very few)
    Leonidas chrono single button ( 50mm moviment Unitas)
    Leonidas CP1
    Universal Geneve CP2 ( very few)
    Leonidas CP2
    Zenith CP2 A. Cairelli
    Heuer 510.543
    Lemania 11022
    Hello my friend,
    Breitling 817??

    Cheers!

  9. #9
    Member Gatt's Avatar
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    Cesar,

    I guess Roberto was referring to watches issued to Air Force pilots.

    The 817 wasnt issued to Air Force pilots for sure. We dont even know anymore if it was issued to helicopter Army pilots

    Cheers,
    Federico

  10. #10
    Member rpaddy's Avatar
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    Hello Cesar,
    The above list is for Italian air Force A.M.I. watches .
    The Italian Army ( Special Forces and not Army Hely pilots aka Aviazione Leggera Esercito) issued the follow watches with engraved E.I. XXXX ( four digits):
    Guinand chrono ref.351 (Landeron 248 - since 1965/1970 but not confirm by documents)
    Leonidas CP2 ( since 1965 - may be 1000 units but not confirm)
    Breitling 817 ( since 1975 - 1000 units)

    Cheers

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatt View Post
    Cesar,

    I guess Roberto was referring to watches issued to Air Force pilots.

    The 817 wasnt issued to Air Force pilots for sure. We dont even know anymore if it was issued to helicopter Army pilots

    Cheers,
    Federico
    Quote Originally Posted by rpaddy View Post
    Hello Cesar,
    The above list is for Italian air Force A.M.I. watches .
    The Italian Army ( Special Forces and not Army Hely pilots aka Aviazione Leggera Esercito) issued the follow watches with engraved E.I. XXXX ( four digits):
    Guinand chrono ref.351 (Landeron 248 - since 1965/1970 but not confirm by documents)
    Leonidas CP2 ( since 1965 - may be 1000 units but not confirm)
    Breitling 817 ( since 1975 - 1000 units)

    Cheers
    Cheers!! Now all clear. Many thanks.

  12. #12

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    Italian military forces had actually more issued watches...

    Universal Geneve Split Seconds Chronograph A. Cairelli
    Universal Geneve Cairelli
    Zenith A.Cairelli
    Leonidas cp1 (3 versions)
    Leonidas CP2 (2 versions)
    Breitling 817
    Guinand Landeron (found in the book by Galizia)
    Heuer 5100
    + all the Panerai

    maybe other stuff?

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