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Thread: Re-made DEF-3 / A.F.0210 / Type 37 pattern strap?

  1. #21
    Member BillyCasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Thanks David, actually the rounded ends on ones I can make easily in 18mm (pictured) and 20mm are very similar to the Drawing 337-5, they are also 2-ply and stainless steel hardware, so the more I think about it the happier I am with them.

    Also, a week into a test and it's holding up well and looking the part.
    Hi Ollie,

    I reckon the Omega 53 and strap in Ken's photographs are mine. However, I can't for the life of me remember where I took the pictures with a white background. Ken was a great source of information on this strap.

    Anyway, I posted the strap to you yesterday so that you can take a look. Huge queue in the post office! As I mentioned earlier, I stupidly washed out the inked markings.

    Regards
    Law's in the wash this week

  2. #22
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    Hi Ollie,

    I reckon the Omega 53 and strap in Ken's photographs are mine. However, I can't for the life of me remember where I took the pictures with a white background. Ken was a great source of information on this strap.

    Anyway, I posted the strap to you yesterday so that you can take a look. Huge queue in the post office! As I mentioned earlier, I stupidly washed out the inked markings.

    Regards
    Thanks. Did you wash the strap at the same time as the law? I only ask because most civil law is handwash only at cold or warm (30 degrees max) whereas all criminal (and some commercial) law is hot wash and can go in the machine. Some laws derived from statue (legislation) or common / case law will need re-waxing or use of proprietary waterproofing products after washing. Laws derived from European Union rulings and the European Convention on Human Rights are dry clean only. Other international laws may be safely put through the machine along with criminal and commercial law but should NOT be tumbled dried or ironed or they may end up in The Hague.

    Don't start me on money laundering, that's a real minefield.
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  3. #23
    Senior Member isologue's Avatar
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    OT but I associate Billy Casper's alias and signature with the photograph used as the avatar, Oliver. The reference would be to Manchester United's Denis Law (and his numbered football shirt), and to Brian Glover's role in the film Kes, a memorable performance for people of a certain age....
    Regards,
    Martin (isologue)

  4. #24
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isologue View Post
    OT but I associate Billy Casper's alias and signature with the photograph used as the avatar, Oliver. The reference would be to Manchester United's Denis Law (and his numbered football shirt), and to Brian Glover's role in the film Kes, a memorable performance for people of a certain age....
    Regards,
    Martin (isologue)
    Thanks Martin, I guess you know Best.

    :-)
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  5. #25
    Senior Member isologue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Thanks Martin, I guess you know Best.

    :-)
    Flippin' kids!

    Anyway, back on thread: we need to talk about getting my AF0210 to you. Where I can compare with the DEF-3 technical drawing, it seems to comply (stitching, design features, ply, widths) but is not round-ended. I think your idea (if I have it correct) to use the originals as pointers to material and feel but to produce a design to a related pattern is the better one. (The AF0210 may have nothing to do with DEF-3 watch standards at all, after all).

    Regards,

    Martin (isologue)

  6. #26
    Member BillyCasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isologue View Post
    OT but I associate Billy Casper's alias and signature with the photograph used as the avatar, Oliver. The reference would be to Manchester United's Denis Law (and his numbered football shirt), and to Brian Glover's role in the film Kes, a memorable performance for people of a certain age....
    Regards,
    Martin (isologue)
    Spot on. Memorable film and book when growing up. The school football scene is unforgettable. Denis Law was my boyhood hero.
    Law's in the wash this week

  7. #27
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    OK, latest update. David Boettcher advised sourcing ribbon or tape woven to the correct width to avoid fraying and save on hems etc. That's all very well but no-one seems to do it in 18mm. So despite DB's dictum a member here is scouring the army surplus shops in search of some vintage webbing (bags, straps, etc.) that can be cut up and used. Might be nice to have old fabric on an old watch, too.

    In parallel to this I have also contacted several manufacturers to see if they can make webbing in 18mm strips. So far only one has got back to me. The good news is they can do it! And it's all made in England! Hurrah. The bad news? "Our minimum order is 3000 metres." By reckoning that's about 2 miles.

    :-/
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Thanks David, actually the rounded ends on ones I can make easily in 18mm (pictured) and 20mm are very similar to the Drawing 337-5, they are also 2-ply and stainless steel hardware, so the more I think about it the happier I am with them.

    Also, a week into a test and it's holding up well and looking the part.
    I would take a few. Well done!

  9. #29

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    I would take a couple of straps.

    Well done for looking at taking it on.

  10. #30
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    So . . . I'm attempting to re-make the old British army cotton canvas / webbing straps, only in 18mm rather than 5/8" (just under 16mm)

    Billy Casper and isologue have both been kind enough to send me their straps. I'll refer to them as the "DEF-3" and "AF0210" respectively.

    The DEF-3 is a single piece of sandy / beige-coloured webbing, very coarse, quite rough fabric. Not got the vernier calipers on it but looks to be about 2mm thick. SS hardware.

    The AF0210 is a two-ply construction, folded over at the non-buckle end and joined by stitching round all four sides approx 2mm in from the edge; khaki green / olive drab in colour. Again, not got the vernier calipers on it but looks to be about 2mm thick (i.e. 2 x 1mm sandwich). Brass (?) furniture.

    The DEF-3 feels slightly thicker, stiffer and heavier than the AF0210.

    Both straps are made from webbing tape woven to the 5/8" width so no cutting, folding and hemming of the edges is needed. The difference in fabric, construction and furniture suggest different manufacturers, although both seem to be made to broadly the same spec sheet.

    Drawing 377-5 has a 2-ply webbing with the SS metalware; it has occurred to me that "2-ply 3-fold webbing" may not mean "two-layers" but may be something to do with the weave of the fabric? That would make sense as the drawing shows a rounded end that is doped -- presumably to prevent fraying when it goes through the buckle and keepers -- and no box stitching to hold the 2-ply sandwich together. It seems that Billy Casper's strap meets the spec of the drawing and rubric exactly; isologue's AF0210 less so, although it is arguably the better strap.

    Here's some pics. Apologies for the quality -- I made up for it in quantity!



















    I made the one that had the rounded-end by cannibalising some parts I already had and can easily source.

    Two things are wrong with this prototype: First, I didn't finish the end well enough -- I should have left enough of a tail after the second keeper ring to double it under and then sewn it nicely tucked-in as per the DEF-3 or least hemmed it neatly as per the A.F.0210. Second, I need to source lighter (thinner) NATO rings that are still tall enough to fit the cotton canvas webbing through. Those are fixable bugs.

    Putting mine up with the DEF-3 and A.F.0210 I think it looks the part and holds its own well alongside its older brothers (more like grandfathers!). I should be able to do these in 18mm and 20mm, assuming I can source the right stainless steel loops (thin and tall).


    Oliver
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  11. #31
    Member maxgara1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post

    Another member pointed me towards Steve O's canvas NATO straps
    I really like the idea of using original vintage material to make new straps. N80leather https://n80leather.wordpress.com/his...canvas-straps/ sells pretty cool stuff too.
    By the way, your first prototype looks fantastic!

  12. #32
    Member Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    This is a valiant effort on your part and very much to be applauded. Your post would be easier to follow if you didn't introduce 2 types of strap and then illustrate it with a set of pictures with 3 straps in it - adding a fourth at the end doesn't help make anything clearer either. Perhaps add labels to the drawings?

  13. #33
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxgara1979 View Post
    I really like the idea of using original vintage material to make new straps. N80leather https://n80leather.wordpress.com/his...canvas-straps/ sells pretty cool stuff too.
    By the way, your first prototype looks fantastic!
    The n80 straps are nice but a bit macho for me -- also not looking too good for the fixed bar brigade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    This is a valiant effort on your part and very much to be applauded. Your post would be easier to follow if you didn't introduce 2 types of strap and then illustrate it with a set of pictures with 3 straps in it - adding a fourth at the end doesn't help make anything clearer either. Perhaps add labels to the drawings?
    Ah, good point.

    I can't edit the post but will re-post the pics with titles explaining them, thus:

    Pictures 1 - 6 show DEF-3 top, Padre's Prototype middle, A.F.0210 bottom













    Fig 7 shows A.F.0210 top, Padre's Prototype second, DEF-3 third, NOS VB fourth



    Picture 8 (side profile) shows DEF-3 top, Padre's Prototype middle, A.F.0210 bottom



    Finally, fig 9 shows A.F.0210 top, Padre's Prototype second, DEF-3 third, NOS VB fourth



    Hope this helps. Still chasing up sources of webbing: non-one seems to make it or have it stock @ 18mm. Cutting up old bags etc is a possibility. I could go into full-scale production of the padre's prototype (I need a better name for it) at any time. I'm ready (minus the metal loops, but I think I can find them) however before I do just want to make sure it's the best available option. So I'm keen to explore and exhaust all other altneratives. To that end, I've requested samples of webbing and have already been sent several, but none is "right" -- weave, thickness, colour etc. Cutting and hemming is also an issue, adding to the work needed and the bulkiness of the strap, especially if it's two-ply and then folded over for the metalware: that could end up being a lot of layers of fabric, meaning the original material would have to be very thin.

    But having had the padre's prototype up alongside the DEF-3 and the AF0210 I'm even more pleased with it than I was before. Identifying the two minor issues with it was also helpful and I think once they are resolved I'm going to be very hard put to do better. Also, I've been wearing it and I like it a lot -- on the wrist it is soft and comfy, quickly picks up a patina (i.e. gets grubby!) and matches the general aesthetic of all the mil watches I've tried it on. Should be machine washable too -- that's the next test!
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  14. #34
    Member BillyCasper's Avatar
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    I like colours of AF0210, construction of DEF3, round ends of prototype.
    Law's in the wash this week

  15. #35
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    I shall mate them and produce a hybrid!

    I put yours in the post to you this afternoon -- many thanks for the loan, most helpful.
    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

  16. #36

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    Ollie, a huge thanks for this noble effort!

    I'll take at least 3.

    cheers
    Todd

  17. #37
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    Sounds like a really interesting project.

  18. #38
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    I'll take a 18mm one.

  19. #39
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    Nice straps!

  20. #40
    Moderator Revo's Avatar
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    And now also in 20mm. I like this one even better -- the heavy watch head is held snugly by the strap, neither allowing too much movement nor being tight, it hugs the wrist. Very comfortable and matches the pale green lume nicely. Proportions are good, too: the c. 2mm thickness is nicely balanced by the 20mm width in a neat 1:10 ratio that feels "right". Pics make it look too brown or grey; in reality it is more green khaki / olive drab.



    "Early this year I saw ex-army watches exhibited in a showcase at a little under 4 each. A week or two later I succeeded in buying one of them for 5. Recently their price seems to have risen to 8." (George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune, 29th November 1946)

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