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Thread: Went to the Bozeman gun show

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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    Default Went to the Bozeman gun show

    There were a lot of knifes and guns for sale at this gun show in Bozeman today. Really was not on a hunt for another gun bought a few to many since I moved to MT. Was on the hunt for a WW2 holster to go with the Remington Rand issued 1911 this is the least I ever spent at a gun show.



    Looks good with it even found a unopened box of issued cir 1942 ammo the holster made by Boyt dated 1942 so is the ammo pouch it's like they belong together. Even saw a German WW2 heavy machine gun for 6000 bucks not full auto and a lot of other cool stuff even a duce and a halve truck for sale.

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    Junior Member Machetero's Avatar
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    Grand. Just grand.

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    Pal RH35 Mk I?

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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepman View Post
    Pal RH35 Mk I?
    Your right

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    Senior Member DaveH's Avatar
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    Nice score. Chrysler steel cased 45 ball. That stuff is corrosive by the way. If you happen to ever shoot any of it just run the barrel in a little hot water and a wet patch. That will wash the salt out of the metal. When I was a kid, there was a book "Bullets by the Billion" about the Evansville plant. Nice Boyt holster, I prefer your brown color. Whenever I would travel around Vietnam by chopper or aircraft, I'd buckle on a rig just like that. People tend to not fuck with you when you have that kind of firepower at hand.

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    Senior Member river rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Nice score. Chrysler steel cased 45 ball. That stuff is corrosive by the way. If you happen to ever shoot any of it just run the barrel in a little hot water and a wet patch. That will wash the salt out of the metal. When I was a kid, there was a book "Bullets by the Billion" about the Evansville plant. Nice Boyt holster, I prefer your brown color. Whenever I would travel around Vietnam by chopper or aircraft, I'd buckle on a rig just like that. People tend to not fuck with you when you have that kind of firepower at hand.
    I all most bought two boxes one to shoot one to keep for the collection I only bought one box as a collectors piece found out that the stuff is corrosive after I bought it glad I did not buy two boxes. Hey Dave the guy I got this holster had bins of old holsters you just went through it to see what you could find they had some the were original WW2 but dyed black you could see brown on the other side to bad.

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    There was a little surplus store here in town 35 or so years ago run by two elderly "sisters" who I later found out were in fact unrelated, and lovers. They somehow had quite a fine sense of nosing out good surplus. I wore tons of new 1950s OG107 pants from there cheaper than the crappy Sears blue jeans.

    They had a literal box of PAL Mk Is, brand new wrapped in brown paper and still somewhat greasy. Don't recall the price, except I was able to buy a couple with my meager teenage funds. Frankly, were they not now of value to collectors, the PAL version was also a really good knife, and the hard composition sheath was way ahead of its time. The PALs in my opinion are the most desirable as a user, and also as it happens apparently the most common.

    They had a Minah bird named George who was adored by pretty much all the customers. They also had an unfortunate habit of buying and selling guns w/o an FFL, and that is what eventually finished the store off.

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    Senior Member DaveH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by river rat View Post
    I all most bought two boxes one to shoot one to keep for the collection I only bought one box as a collectors piece found out that the stuff is corrosive after I bought it glad I did not buy two boxes. Hey Dave the guy I got this holster had bins of old holsters you just went through it to see what you could find they had some the were original WW2 but dyed black you could see brown on the other side to bad.
    Shooting corrosive ammo is really no big deal. That is ALL they shot when they were used by the Army. You just clean as usual but at some point include some water in the process. I just used hot water and wet patched it a few times followed by a rinse. The heat will dry it completely (just like with black powder guns) and when it is dry, you run an oiled patch through and that's it. It pays to repeat the next day to get anything that may be in the pores of the metal. Using steel cased ammo is hard on the extractors of military arms. They also made some steel cased 30 carbine ammo but it was limited to training in CONUS. Steel cases are really detrimental to carbines. Using Russian steel ammo may seem like good value but the stuff is coated with lacquer and tends to gum up chambers. In an AK or SKS, it isn't a big deal because they are sloppy fit weapons anyway. US weapons not so. The Germans actually developed steel cased ammo in WW2. I think that the black holsters were used by MPs, but not sure. Those rigs like you show were really comfortable and handy to wear when traveling in country. Three magazines full was enough ammo for what you would be doing. I had to pull mine once when I was about to be jumped by about a dozen punks in Cholon. I was down there picking up some shot up cameras for the Combat Photogs in our camp. When the 45 came out, these cowboys lost interest.

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    Senior Member lysander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Shooting corrosive ammo is really no big deal. That is ALL they shot when they were used by the Army. You just clean as usual but at some point include some water in the process. I just used hot water and wet patched it a few times followed by a rinse. The heat will dry it completely (just like with black powder guns) and when it is dry, you run an oiled patch through and that's it. It pays to repeat the next day to get anything that may be in the pores of the metal. Using steel cased ammo is hard on the extractors of military arms. They also made some steel cased 30 carbine ammo but it was limited to training in CONUS. Steel cases are really detrimental to carbines. Using Russian steel ammo may seem like good value but the stuff is coated with lacquer and tends to gum up chambers. In an AK or SKS, it isn't a big deal because they are sloppy fit weapons anyway. US weapons not so. The Germans actually developed steel cased ammo in WW2. I think that the black holsters were used by MPs, but not sure. Those rigs like you show were really comfortable and handy to wear when traveling in country. Three magazines full was enough ammo for what you would be doing. I had to pull mine once when I was about to be jumped by about a dozen punks in Cholon. I was down there picking up some shot up cameras for the Combat Photogs in our camp. When the 45 came out, these cowboys lost interest.
    The US also made .45 ACP with steel cases. I had a few boxes of that once. I also seem to remember my Dad having brought home a few thousand empties after a test he did with the USMC, it was trash to them, as it couldn't be mixed with the brass cases. The major problem with steel cases is the steel is not as elastic as brass, therefore, does not spring-back after expanding to seal the chamber. If the chamber get fouled, they start to stick sooner.

    The Germans starting about 1938 started to make 9mm Para ammo with steel cases for the MP 38 and P38, the P08 was still supposed to use brass ammo, as Lugers tend to be finicky about ammunition. About 1941, steel began to replace all ammunition cases as well as iron or sintered iron bullet cores and bullet jackets, as copper became increasing too valuable to throw at the enemy. About 1944, they stopped bothering to put a jacket on the bullet and the whole thing is just sintered iron and the surface looks rough.

    The US Army change from brown leather equipment to black leather equipment in 1957, the same time as the adoption of the black leather combat boot, the USMC followed suit the 1962ish. MPs, being appearance conscious, probably switched to black immediately by ordering new black ones or dying the old ones, as soon as the new regulations were published.

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    "Supposedly" the ECS ammo was also hard on extractors. A friend's 90 year old father said the steel case ammo and the '28 Thompsons they kept shipboard were particularly incompatible.

    Most of the 7.62x25 I've ever shot was corrosive. Lots of tricks for cleaning it, and they all seemed to work as long as you did it same day, and repeated for 2 more days. Hot water and Murphy's soap was what my friend swore by, and I once cleaned my ChiCom Tok with windshield washer fluid. Worked fine.

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    Senior Member lysander's Avatar
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    M1928 Thompsons are a delayed blowback design. The bolt starts it rearward movement early in the cycle, so the 'sticky' steel cases are problematic. In the M3 and other similar designs steel ammo works just as reliable as brass...

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    Senior Member DaveH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    M1928 Thompsons are a delayed blowback design. The bolt starts it rearward movement early in the cycle, so the 'sticky' steel cases are problematic. In the M3 and other similar designs steel ammo works just as reliable as brass...
    I have actually reloaded some steel 45 cases. They are so sturdy that they never stretch or even deform much after firing. I have never trimmed a 45 case in 40 years of reloading them. The Thompsons actually began with a carefully shaped wedge that was supposed to be essential to the design. When they went to the wartime production (Savage?) they simply left the wedge out and it worked fine. I would bet that the steel cases would bust a Reising in about one magazine.

    I read somewhere that the Germans began the war with about a Milliarde (1000X1000000) of 7.92X57mm. Consider in a single month during the battle for Stalingrad they used 25M rounds. And they had to haul every round all the way from Germany/Austria, overland, mostly by truck. Easy to see why they lost.

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    Senior Member lysander's Avatar
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    Of all the belligerents of WW2, the one least prepared for war was ... Germany. It was almost as if Hitler did not expect Britain and France to declare war after he invaded Poland....

    They had out spent the rest of the world on military programs in the 5 years prior to the war but had done so with out a strategic plan. And, pretty much would fight the next six years "from-the-hip" so to speak, trying to shoe-horn existing weapons systems to fill roles they were not designed for and often ill-suited for. Further aggravating the problem was the wasteful expenditure of resources on duplicate programs and 'pie-in-the-sky' wonder weapons.

    Little known fact: German ammunition production dropped by about half, after the defeat of France, and would not reach the levels of summer 1940 again until the middle of 1942. and the whole invasion of the Soviet Union was only supposed to consume 4 months of ammunition production.

    Oh, and the total US ammunition production for the four years from the attack on Pearl Harbor to V-J day was 47 billion rounds. That was everything, 9mm, .45, .30-06, .303, 7.92, .50 cal. I don't think the Germans had a billion 7.92 mm in 1939, I would guess it was a billion of all types, possibly including 20mm.

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    Senior Member DaveH's Avatar
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    I've read a book "Supplying War" which really explains just how unprepared Germany was for their war with Russia. Some divisions started the war with as little as 2 basic loads. The tactic of running motorized and panzer units around and encircling 100s of thousands of Russians was very heavy on ammunition consumption. They were constantly roaring around the edges of the sack trying to hold the bag closed while waiting for the Infantry to walk to work at 20 miles a day. After a year, the Russians got wise to this tactic and just broke out and fled rather than surrendering and being starved to death. Goering was outraged when he heard that one of his prison camp guards had been killed and eaten by the prisoners.

    Germany never went to full 24/7 wartime production until 1944 and of course by then it was too late. They annexed both Austria and Czechoslovakia and by doing so looted enough foreign currency to pay for the rearming for about 3 years. But it really shows that the Nazis were just a large criminal enterprise, not a country going to war for good reason. If they had left Russia alone for another 5 years, they might have pulled it off, but by starting in summer of 41, they had not made good their losses from the Battle of Britain in aircraft and aircrews. which were substantial. I imagine that if Hitler had just let them close on and capture Moscow, the Russians might have folded like a wet noodle, but given a 6 month respite, they got it together and went on the offensive. Russia delivered a promised trainload of oil, grain, hides and leather to Germany the day before the Germans invaded them.

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    Senior Member lysander's Avatar
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    Stalin would have done just exactly what Alexander did in 1812, fall back, regroup and let the winter take its toll, then start the meat grinder.

    The Soviet Union had a population of 170 million, twice that of Germany. In a war of attrition, Germany was doomed, and Stalin was just a little too smart to let the war be anything else but a war of attrition.

    Trivia: How many German mechanized divisions were assigned to Operation Barbarossa? 29, only 20.5% of the invading force would ride into battle, the rest would walk with their heavy equipment horse-drawn. In contrast, the Soviets fielded 50 mechanized divisions, just a little over a third of the total force.

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    Senior Member DaveH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Stalin would have done just exactly what Alexander did in 1812, fall back, regroup and let the winter take its toll, then start the meat grinder.

    The Soviet Union had a population of 170 million, twice that of Germany. In a war of attrition, Germany was doomed, and Stalin was just a little too smart to let the war be anything else but a war of attrition.

    Trivia: How many German mechanized divisions were assigned to Operation Barbarossa? 29, only 20.5% of the invading force would ride into battle, the rest would walk with their heavy equipment horse-drawn. In contrast, the Soviets fielded 50 mechanized divisions, just a little over a third of the total force.
    Germany had counted on using captured Russian railroad equipment to supply its troops, failing that they would use captured French and British lorries. When they entered Russia, the Russians fled with their rolling stock and left the track for the Germans. The problem was that Russian and German rolling stock are different gauges. You either use Russian or change the track layout. They were forced into changing hundreds of miles of improper gauge track prior to hauling a single round or bag of peas. There was about 150 miles of paved highway in all of Russia, captured Russian gas would not work in German vehicles or aircraft. The other fly in the ointment was the German blitzkrieg tactic of surround and force surrender left thousands of Russians in the rear areas completely unmolested. They already had weapons and only lacked food to become a major pain in the ass for the Germans. In the first year of Barbarossa the Germans lost over 1M men or 1/3 of their original attacking force. German high command knew that they'd lost the war after only one year. After they had captured the Crimea, they had lost the cream of their army and shortly thereafter lost at Stalingrad leaving the flank of the Crimea wide open and forcing the Germans to abandon all they had gained. Oil, it was always about oil.

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